The fall and rise of the
Pan Africanist Congress
SOUTH AFRICA they didn't work with us and that we were not the same organizations.
What I'm trying to explain is that the revival of the PAC's activities, of panAfricanism, was hindered first by the bannings and the punishments, and secondly by following BCM ideology, thinking that it was a PAC ideology. It was only when we took account of all these factors that we could revive the organization.
HAS THE Pan Africanist Congress (PAC) become a substantial force on the South African political scene? At least, this is what its leaders are saying. On several occasions the media has made the point that over the last two years there have been an increasing number of actions led by this movement.
Born from a split with the ANC in the 1950s, the PAC was profoundly weakened from the middle 1960s on. Its adhesion to a socialism tinged with references to
"African socialism" severely hampered its ability to grasp the new social situation in South Africa. But, since then, the growth of the Black Consciousness Movement
(BCM) seems to have given the PAC possibilities for a low-profile activity in the ranks of the BCM to accumulate new forces.
In addition, at the 1988 congress of the country's second union federation (NACTU) there was an unexpected confrontation between the traditional supporters of "Black consciousness" and a current more or less supporting the PAC's positions.
The following interview with a leader of the PAC took place in March this year in South Africa. It has been abridged for space reasons.
W
HAT IS your opinion of the new political situation, with the developments of the Afrikaanist position, and developments inside the Pan Africanist Congress [PAC]?
Many people in the early 1980s, for instance, claimed that the PAC was disappearing.
It is very difficult to explain the development of the PAC inside the country, because there are many factors that have led to its growth. The first one was that, when we were arrested in the 1960s, the
PAC was still a very young organization. It was only nine months old, and at this time we were not an organization that was prepared for such a shock. The result was that most of the PAC's leaders were put in jail for a long time. This deprived the organization of its roots.
So, all our leaders were taken in. Some of them were deported and sent to the Transkei, some of them were released into the bantustans. The real leadership of the PAC was taken away from the urban areas and scattered all over. With the coming of the
1980s a new revival has taken place, because some of the leaders who were banned have now infiltrated back and returned to the urban areas.
Another factor is that, for some time, the PAC's activities were overshadowed by those of the Black Consciousness Movement [BCM]. This movement was very closely related to the PAC's way of thinking. As a result, many members of the PAC saw the BCM as the vehicle, as a bridge we could ride over. Organizations like the UDF [United Democratic Front] openly pronounced themselves to be working for the Freedom Charter, which is the ANC's ideology. Similarly, there was a feeling among many of our members that the BCM was the vehicle on which the ideology of pan-Africanism could be carried forward. It is not actually the case that the PAC and the BCM are the same things, although they are related. This led to many of our members, who should have been working for the PAC to work instead for the BCM, and later AZAPO [Azanian Peoples Organization]. It was the BCM who eventually put out some press statements saying that
• What are the differences now between you and those who claim to be BCM sympathizers - AZAPO people and so on?
There are some differences. For example, AZAPO does not believe in panAfricanism: they see this as a dream that can never be fulfilled. There is also the question of ideology concerning the greater participation of whites in the struggle. Admittedly, in previous years when we were still very young, there was a tendency on our part to misinterpret the documents. And I can openly admit that I was one of those people in the early 1960s who thought that the PAC was exclusively a Black organization. But after further study of the documents and further discussion with the old guard, we discovered that we were actually misinterpreting our own documents.
Some today, like those in the BCM, view the question of colour as central, but we no longer view it as central. We see racism as an attitude of mind. You can be Black and still be racist and behave in the same manner as a white person behaves. The argument that white is the problem and black the solution no longer holds nowadays. • And you think that this is the main difference between yourselves and people in AZAPO? Do you think that your approach to the national question is more radical, more correct, than AZAPO's approach?
Yes, I think so. Of course, whenever we talk amongst ourselves there is a tendency to think that what we are saying is correct, and that the other person's point of view is inferior. I don't approach the discussion in that way at all. But if somebody can come and convince me that I'm wrong, I'm open to discussion on this question. • From this pan-Africanist ideology, how do you approach the question of Southern Africa as a whole and what is happening today in Zimbabwe or Mozambique?
The coming to power of Robert Mugabe, the leader of ZANU [Zimbabwe African National Union], has strengthened the ideology of pan-Africanism very much. Not that Mugabe was the only pan-Africanist in the continent. But the difference lies in the fact of the closer relationship between us, the PAC, and ZANU. Because they, the greatest of our friends, have taken over power, and from that moment things have 23 never been the same.
SOUTH AFRICA
Before the liberation of Zimbabwe we were somehow left on the periphery. But with the coming to power of ZANU we are now in the position of saying that we have a friend who is a neighbour of the South African state. • But there are currently some problems in Zimbabwe, in the ruling party, in the government. Isn't it a problem for these ideas, given that there is still high unemployment in Zimbabwe, that the land question is still not resolved and there is the beginnings of a governmental cri-
Yes, that's correct, and it must affect us in the long run. But, having said that, in any society, in any government, in any party, there will always be contradictions. Sometimes the positive side of these contradictions may be overcome by the negative forces. But there is a constant struggle between these two, as Marx put it — it's a question of dialectics. In the long run, I do hope — and I have the greatest hope — that the positive forces will eventually emerge victorious.
The positions of the government nowadays, with all the economic problems that they are facing, are just temporary as far as I am concerned. In the past, I said the same about countries that have not been successful. I used to think that whenever a problem arose, it would be solved by such and such a thing. But I know the problems that are facing these people. Firstly, the economy of Zimbabwe has been tied to the South African economy. Secondly, the economy of the country has been highly capitalized.
Of course, there was a difference between the economy of Zimbabwe and that of other African states, in that there was some form of internal capitalism that was developing from within. There were some people who owned the means of production although previously they had been workers themselves, but because they were white, they were elevated into a position Where they became the owners of the means of production. When these people left, then Black people crept in and they occupied the position that was left over by their masters. This is now a real problem, because capitalism is so sweet that once you taste it, it's not going to be easy then to say that you will take it over. This is now the problem that is facing them. • There is a debate now in South Africa about the nature of the revolution, the question of stages, its social nature, the form of the state and so on. What is the position of your organization on these discussions?
A simple Marxist approach. The revolution is socialistic in presentation; it must be revolutionary in content. Of course, there will be differences in this country, because 24 the position of the classes here differs radically from the position of classes elsewhere International Viewpoint #165 • June 12, 1989 in that we have the lumpen proletariat -people who possess nothing. You find such people in any society. But here, because of the colonial nature of the country, because this white group has established colonies all over the country, we have statelets like the Ciskei and the Transkei, which has generated some form of internal colonialism.
In turn this has become a problem, whereby the rural people find themselves coming into the urban areas. If you look at these people, they are the people of "two worlds". When they come into Cape Town or Johannesburg they become part of the proletariat, the working class proletariat. But when they go back they become peasants. So they are the people of the two
Then the ruling class also is problem, because the term "ruling class" can be very confusing. In terms of the classic explanation of the ruling class, we can say that they are those who own the means of production - the landowners, mine-owners and all these people. However, here in South Africa, it's a different situation. There are some people belonging to the working class who, because they have been bribed over the years, over decades, don't see themselves as part of society as it is. So they now constitute a class of their own. • But do you think that in South Africa what you call a socialistic revolution will be the same as in Zimbabwe
I can't say it will be different. I'm sorry to say this — I don't want to sound defeatist. In this country it's going to be worse. There's no doubt about that. People like me, who are already placed in the position where you supervise a group of people, are going to be bribed and become a class of its own. They are going to be bribed and put in charge of Woolworth, in charge of OK Bazaar. And this group is going to acquire different interests — they will be provided with beautiful homes.
They will then see themselves as quite different from others, and will constitute part of the new capitalism that is rising up now, and take over from the state of the whites. In the future, we may find that instead of a racial characterization in this country, there will be a class characteriza• The overwhelming majority of people are working class, and they have started raising demands that go beyond just ending apartheid, to the ending of capitalism.
Do you foresee a situation that no matter how much the big bourgeoisie, the ruling class, wants to elevate the so-called leadership into Bishops Court [a luxurious residential neighbourhood in Cape Town], that the workers will go beyond that and push the revolution to completion, to the taking over of the means of production and the state? That this could be a big difference between what will happen here and what took place in Zimbabwe?
Yes, but that will also take a long time to come. Because the situation of capital for the regime will become so fluid that both socialist and capitalist forces will be competing for the same group of people, those I have just mentioned. But then this group of people will know much more about the benefit they will be getting from the capitalist than the benefits they will get from the socialists. People trust what they know, rather than what they don't know. What is going to happen here in this country, I'm afraid, is not going to give us enough time to embark on such programmes. In the long term, yes. But in the short term, these people are going to be bribing large numbers of workers. My fear is that things will happen before we realize what's going on. There may be a negotiated settlement in this coun try that will exclude you and me in the long
I just want to remind you of what happened in Zimbabwe. Nkomo and Smith, through the good offices of South Africa, were working for a solution that was going to exclude ZANU. It just didn't succeed because ZANU was very powerful at that time. But here in South Africa the ruling class, the middle class, the white academics and all such may work very, very hard to see to it that there is a negotiated settlement that only includes the ANC and those who believe in the Freedom Charter, and exclude all others. You can see this with the string of visitors going over to the ANC offices abroad. What I'm afraid of is that [in the future] we may not have the chance to put to the people the type of programme we are proposing now. • What is the PAC's attitude to a negotiated settlement?
The solution that we want is a socialist revolution, with all that that implies: where the means of production will be in the hands of the people; where the people will govern in terms of democracy — the government of the people, by the people and for the people; the ending of exploitation of man by man; and the centralization of power in the hands of the working class. This is my ideal type of revolution, and this is what all of us in the PAC believe in.
On the question of a negotiated settlement. When you go for negotiations, there is one thing that you must know. You must look in terms of the balance of forces. Only when we have forces that are equal to those of the ruling class can we go for a negotiated settlement in this country. If we were to go for negotiations at present, it would be just a matter of surrendering to the herrenvolk [master-race] forces, which is something that a PAC member could never think • This question of a negotiated settlement is also linked to the international situation and the "new
June 12, 1989 • #165 International Viewpoint deal" between the US and Soviet Union of Mikhail Gorbachev. The PAC was invited to Moscow and sent a delegation. What was the purpose of this visit, and what do you think about the Soviet position now on Southern Africa?
I've not really studied it. But the first thing that springs to my mind is that all along the Soviet Union has particularly singled out the ANC as the only authentic party. There was the MPLA, the ANC, Frelimo and ZAPU. These used to go and they used to be called authentic. But all this was shattered by the coming to power of Mugabe. It changed everything. Mozambique, which was a country that was sheltering Mugabe, came to support him and
The Soviet Union must have learnt a lot of lessons from what happened in Zimbabwe. The newspapers were making a chorus that the Soviet Union had backed the wrong horse. I think that now the Soviet Union are beginning to look at Southern Africa in a very different way from the way they approached it in the 1970s.
I don't know the reason why the Soviet Union approached the PAC. But for the PAC to visit the USSR is something that I commend very much, because if you keep yourself in isolation you end up being a pessimist deprived of knowledge and everything. There is no point in going to someone to discuss and agreeing to disa• Coming back to the internal situation in South Africa. What do you think about the social situation after four or five years of massive mobilizations? Do you think there is the beginning of a downturn, and what are the short-term perspectives of the struggle?
It's not a short-term business. But if we look at it purely in the short term, one can see that there has been a great deal of economic improvement of the Black people in this country. But having said this, this is going to be a very dangerous phenomena, as I pointed out. The capitalists are going all out to build a new middle class, there is no doubt about that. A Black middle class. They are trying to do this because they know that a Black middle class will be in a position to defend the interests of the white
In the short term, they are going to pump a lot of money into the Black areas. We are going to see many Black people rising up to become middle class, eventually becoming capitalists themselves. But in the long term this is just delaying the start. I really can't see how every Black person or every white person can be bribed any more. There comes a time when you become exhausted and even the means for bribery will become exhausted. They can pump a lot of money in, but that cannot go on indefinitely. The mining industry is a wasting industry and it has a limited life-span. After a certain period - after the year 2020, for example, or 2050 — there will be no more coal in this country to be exploited, there will be no more gold. The capitalists are beginning to think about this. They think that they can bribe people before this happens. It will mean that, even if in a period of twenty years from now, the revolutionary spirit will not be dead by any means. • What is your opinion on the union struggle and the divisions between COSATU and NACTU?
The working class in this country is still in its infancy. The divisions between the various groups, for example NACTU and COSATU, will still continue for a long time, because they are still controlled by the political organizations and by different ideologies. One trade union will come out and say "Viva Freedom Charter" or "Viva Mandela", for example, and the other one will say "Viva Sobukwe" [historic PAC leader], because of the different ideologies of these groups. NACTU has a panAfricanist orientation and COSATU believes in the ideals of the Freedom Charter. Obviously they can never because the solution cannot be found in the workplaces, but on the political level.
If these differences between the various organizations continue, they will be reflected in the working class community. The solution that can be found on the question of NACTU and COSATU can only be found when these political organizations - the PAC and the ANC — come together to discuss resolving the political stalemate
Also there is a problem of the workerist groups. They believe that the workers are the real people who should be doing everything, and therefore anyone who is not a worker is not a revolutionary. This is very serious. Unfortunately, these ideas have influenced many people. A worker, in my opinion, must cooperate with the political. Otherwise, if a worker goes into struggle without taking into account the political situation and the political organizations then they are bound to deviate from the
Going back to the general political situation, there is a great deal of mobilization, some rise in the forces supporting panAfricanist ideology. People are no longer blinded by their previous conceptions. For example, they no longer tie themselves the Black Consciousness Movement. Now they think in terms of the activities of their true organization.
Another issue that has emerged here is that, whereas in the past we were an exclusive organization that worked by itself and for itself, we have now learnt to have friends. We have learnt that this struggle cannot be fought and won without having allies. We have come out of our mood of isolation and now we think about who our friends are. Remember the old saying that my enemy's enemy is my friend. This is now the position we are adopting. Our
SOUTH AFRICA position is not opportunistic. It is based on discussion and assessment of things here in this country. There are many things that I and my friends have done together, and these are the things that have led us to become one and more.
The situation in this country with the fall of the UDF means that there is a strong vacuum that has been created — not that it was the only organization that was working. But there is a big vacuum that has been created because nowadays, people who used to be members of political organizations have tended to become against us....Now they are standing on the street corners as lumpen proletariat, completely deprived of anything, stepping on and dropping people. This is now the position that we are in • Finally, what do you think about the situation in Pietermaritzburg in northern Natal and the problem of Inkatha [Chief Buthelezi's reactionary Zulu movement]?
This is really a very big problem. It also stems from the initial political opportunism of the leadership. It is not a question of blaming any particular political organizations, but it demonstrates their immaturity of leadership, which must be condemned. People are dying there. The leadership of both factions could have come together and tried to solve this problem, because it is a terrible loss of life. Also, the people themselves should realize that they are being used as cannon-fodder by their leaders....
The conflict will continue, because Inkatha is very provocative, and it wants everybody to become members of Inkatha. They have destroyed many organizations. But I think that today they realize that there are areas like Pietermaritzburg that cannot be bullied into that sort of thing. Without taking sides, the violence that is continuing in Pietermaritzburg is a great tragedy for all of 25