THE FOLLOWING Interview, with
Inquilabi Communist Sangathan
(ICS), Indian section of the Fourth international, was conducted by
Between
state and
Mihir Desai, a leader of the
Colin Meade at the beginning of
February.
OULD you give some background to the fall of the Singh government in India in October of last year?
The current governing party is the Janata Dal (S) party, the S standing for socialist. The old Congress government of Rajiv Gandhi was defeated in 1989 by a coalition led by the Janata Dal opposition. Congress was the largest party in parliament with 200 seats; the Janata Dal only got 140 but with the support of the right reactionary party the BJP (Bharatiya Janata Party) it formed the government. However, that government split in October 1990 when the BJP refused to support prime minister V.P. Singh. He refused to resign and so a section of Janata Dal split to form the Janata Dal (S). Congress decided to support that section of the Janata Dal which had split and so the new prime minister has come to power with the support of the Con• So Congress is back in power?
No, but without its support the existing government cannot remain in power. So Congress is de facto in power but on paper it is the Janata Dal (S). • Can you explain the role of the Congress Party in Indian politics? Has it changed over time?
Yes, the origins of the party lie in the original Congress that led the nationalist movement in India, and since independence it has been in power for most of the time. But after the 1975-77 emergency it was defeated by a coalition led by the Janata Party (different from the one currently in power). But that Janata split and elections were called before time in 1980 and they lost their majority. Indira Gandhi and Congress came back to power and in 1984, after the assassination of Indira, her son Rajiv came into power on a Congress plank until he was defeated in 1989. Over the years there has been a decline in support for Congress - it has never received more than 50% of votes in any election and now it is receiving even less. Also it is not a cadre based party like many others so its main plank has been its historical continuity and secularism, so-called. • So is it a kind of two party system of a special type?
No, a two party system of the British or American type is not in our opinion possible in India; what you have is Congress on one side and on the other temporary alignments of various parties which may challenge Congress for some time, but not permanently, because these ments have such different social bases that they are in permanent conflict with each other. Janata's support, for example, comes from both the urban bourgeoisie and the rural bourgeoisie which are in conflict with each other. • Does the Congress have a coherent economic policy?
Until about the mid-70s its policy was one of relative independence from imperialism, that is American, Japanese and British imperialism. But from 1975-76 onwards, and more from 1984 onwards, there has been a constant process of liberalization, whereby it has been made much easier for foreign capital to come in. But the policy of the Indian government is basically liberalization coupled with a • Are there any proposals to go further with liberalization?
Yes, each party which contends for power does so on the basis of further liberalization. This has been true for the last two or three years. • What would be the impact of this?
Very bad. Although India does not have a massive foreign debt problem, like for instance Latin America, slowly the debt is increasing and a continued policy of liberalization would lead to a Latin American type of situation. • Is there a real contradiction between the Congress Indian bour-
INDIA
DRIN geoisie and imperialism?
Yes, there has been in the sense that the Indian bourgeoisie, even at the time of independence, was a relatively strong bourgeoisie compared to most other Third World countries, with indigenous steel, chemical, pharmaceutical plants and so on, and what has happened is that the Indian government immediately after independence, had a policy of concentrating on the public sector to provide the infrastructure for the indigenous bourgeoisie. In that sense there are conflicts between sections of the indigenous bourgeoisie and imperi-
For example, in 1977 Coca Cola and IBM were thrown out of India by the Janata government, who said that unless foreign equity was reduced to less than 40% they would not be allowed to stay in the country. Now the government is trying to help Pepsi Cola establish themselves in India, but after Coca Cola was thrown out a lot of indigenous aerated water manufacturers became very big because there was a vacuum, and these are opposed to the introduction of Pepsi. • Is it the case that US imperialism has an interest in the break up of India?
In a certain sense. For instance the Punjabi struggle or the Kashmiri struggle have been extensively financed from Pakistan, which gets a lot of money from the US, so in that sense, yes, but personally I do not see India breaking up. There will be a lot of disruption but the Indian ruling class will not allow a break up of India under any circumstances. • What lies behind the conflict between the central government and the state governments? Is there a social force behind the regional movements?
There are two factors at work here, one is the regional big capitalist farmers, the othassert itself at the national level. These two March 4, 1991 • #201 International Viewpoint
INDIA / USSR factors have led, broadly speaking, to a Congress type of party in the center and regional parties at the state level reflecting the aspirations of the regional ruling classes, and that is a contradiction. The centrestate relationship has become a very important issue in Indian politics. • What about the rise of communalism and such groups as the BJP?
It is in our opinion the central problem facing the masses in Indian politics today — the rise of Hindu populism and, as a reaction, the rise of Muslim and also Sikh fundamentalism. Relative poverty has been growing, so has unemployment, and these frustrations have been channelled by these reactionary religious organizations. This has given rise to fundamentalism, which is growing at a very rapid rate, and is a major danger. Our primary task in India is finding means to combat funda• Have you found allies in this?
Firstly, we try to combine with all the left groups in a united front to fight fundamentalism. The only problem is that when rioting is going on we do not have the means to combat it, because the only way you can stop a person being killed is by arming them. We don't have these arms so the people affected go to the Mafia dons of their communities who become stronger as a result. We are still searching, along with other groups, for ways and means to combat fundamentalism, one of which must be some kind of cultural input and cultural alternative to the religious identity which people have and which is becoming stronger. • How does the question of caste, and the recent initiative of the Singh government in terms of positive action for the lower castes, fit into all
The Indian caste system is divided into four parts, Brahmins, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra which are the lowest caste, and outside the caste system are the outcastes so you actually have five categories. For the outcastes the government has provided since 1950 a 15% reservation in education and jobs, because that is the percentage of the Indian population they represent. At the time they also said they would make reservations for the Shudra but this was never implemented. Finally in 1989 they said they would reserve 15% for the Shudra also, which led to a big uproar, to riots, and about 200 upper caste people burning themselves alive. This is a reaction of the upper castes to frustration in finding jobs and opportunities, but the wrong reaction. We feel these reservations are justified, because these people have been excluded for thousands of years from certain kinds of jobs, from education and so on. They form about 52% of the population but they 16 One of the reasons Singh took obs
One of the reasons Singh took this step International Viewpoint #201 • March 4, 1991 was to divide the Hindu population. The BJP had taken up the issue of the Babri Masjid-Ram Janmabhoomi temple, which was the major issue on which the split between the BJP and Singh took place. It did divide Hindus for some time, but the issue is at an ebb now. It will come up again soon when the Supreme Court discusses the validity of the measures and it will divide the Hindu population down the middle. No political party, not even the BJP, can say they oppose the measures because they cannot afford to alienate their supporters. • What kind of support does the Indian left enjoy?
In Kerala and West Bengal the Communist Party (Marxist) governments are still in power with the support of the Communist Party of India and other forces. In other areas they do not have very significant support. They made a difference when they came to power about 15 or 20 years ago but in my opinion they are now as reactionary or as counter productive as any bourgeois government, because they use the same tactics, communalization, they go on a caste or community basis. In the eyes of common people communism is still seen in a positive light, events in Eastern Europe have not made much dif• The CPM has recently been discussing the question of Eastern Europe and Stalinism.
Yes, there has been a lot of discontent as far as we can see among the young cadres of the CPM following the events in Eastern Europe, Russia, and China. • What about the Maoist groups?
About 4 or 5 of them remain very strong, with membership in the thousands, at least 3 of them are involved in armed struggle, guerilla warfare, and they have strong bases, especially in central India where the thick forests are. • What kind of people do they recruit?
Mainly tribal peoples, poor peasants, some students. • Do you feel there are positive forces with which you can work within Indian society?
Yes, at the level of the left groups we are working with some of the Maoist organizations, and we recognize them as revolutionary organizations, at least in the Indian context. Also we work with lower caste organizations like the Dalit, ecological groups, womens' organizations. The latter are very strong and growing quite rapidly. Recently there was an all-India womens' conference in Kerala, just a month ago, and over 2,500 women attended. *