Lopez spoke at length about the current negotiations between the Salvadoran government and the FMLN, as well as the current debates among Salvadoran revolutionaries.
OULD you tell us about the recent accords signed in
New York between the Salvadoran government and the FMLN under the aegis of the United Nations ?
The Secretary-General of the United
Nations initiated these negotiations at the request of [US Secretary of State] Baker and Soviet foreign minister Bessmertnykh, who figured that the Salvadoran discussions were at an impasse, or, as Perez de Cuellar put it, that it was necessary to cut the gordian knot.
The FMLN was interested in finding ways to become integrated into the legal political life of the country. We began by insisting on the total demilitarization of
Salvadoran society so that all political forces be free to carry out their activities.
....... These are the demands that we put forward in the autumn of 1990 but which were never met.
Later, the FMLN made a proposal that constituted a turning point: rather than conducting negotiations in two phases, we proposed having a single phase which would consist of a definitive cease-fire with the participation of the FMLN in the armed forces as a guarantee. The government again refused, which brought the negotiations to an impasse. For our part, we figured that there were not enough guarantees if this condition was not met. At that point the Secretary-General of the UN called the meeting between the FMLN and president Cristiani.
We than proposed a series of various guarantees; if one failed there would be others. We demanded for example, that
The army participates as one of the two government delegates. In reality the government has designated two scldiers including one who has retired. Another guarantee is the involvement of the United Nations, not only as a supervisor of the accords through its El Salvador bureau (ONUSAL), but also through the involvement of the Security Council which has supported the proposals made by the Secretary-General.
All of this does not imply that we have abandoned our plan of totally demilitarizing Salvadoran society, which is part of our program; we have stated that we will continue to work for this. • What has been obtained as far as the army is concerned and what will be the effect of the purge of the army?
Those elements in the army who have been involved in crimes or corruption will be thrown out; this includes far more than just the officers of La Tandona . An ad hoc commission will be formed charged with investigating each of its officers, in both the army and the security forces. This commission, which will be named by the president upon recommendation of the 23 UN Secretary-General, will investigate
EL SALVADOR each officer and noncommissioned offi- will no doubt be necessary to bring this up cer. again during the negotiations and in the forum of consultation. As far as the ques• Who will be part of this commis- tion of technical assistance is concerned, sion? foreign cooperation has an important role
This is one of the subjects of the discus- to play, particularly non-governmental sion that has not yet been resolved. cooperation, which is already happening COPAZ will have to respect the recom- through the nongovernmental organizamendations of the commission. tions (NGOs), but which must be aug mented. • There are several possible outcomes: military or civilian tribunals • The Inter-American Development can be established or an amnesty Agency (IDA) has announced that it law could be enacted. What is your will give 500 million dollars in aid to position on this? the Salvadoran government. This
One of the items on the agenda con- aid is surely not without strings cers the retirement of army officers. This attached. commission will decide who will be Certainly not. Especially with such a retired and who will be judged. large sum. In my opinion, the government
On the economic and social plane some will try to destabilize our social base by progress has been made in New York. A using these credits. This will be a new very important gain has been the recogni- area of conflict. tion of the current forms of property ownership in the zones controlled by the • If on the military plane a cease fire FMLN. Juridical forms must be found to is signed, what will this mean from legalize this situation. There is also an the point of view of the arms you agreement to allow the peasants to remain now possess? on the land they have occupied at the Up until now we have never discussed beginning of this year. The government the disarming of the FMLN. This has not must give land holdings exceeding 245 been part of the negotiations and we have hectares? to the peasants and begin to buy not been disposed to speak about it. A land put up for sale which will later be cease-fire implies putting down our arms, but what are the necessary criteria as far
In fact, after the agrarian reform as a timetable is concerned? We have said decreed by former president Duarte, some that a cease-fire will be possible when the lands should have been sold, the owners accords have been applied. But each party had to sell them, either at their own initia- has a different reading of what this means. tive or because they were larger than the We will have to reach an agreement about limit. Many land holdings were put up for sale without the state buying them. In other words, the body formed to do this did • Are there still outstanding quesnot acquire any land at all. Today the gov- tions to be taken up in the negotiaernment has begun to buy them in order to distribute them. Questions concerning economic and
Another agreement that has been made social matters, human rights, judicial deals with the means by which the gov- power, the electoral system and finally ernment can arrange for communities to the ways in which the United Nations will directly receive foreign financial aid. enforce the agreements must be taken up Finally, another agreement concerns eco- When all this has been taken care of nomic and social policies with the partici- arrangements concerning the technical pation of the government, private firms aspects of the cease-fire, for example the and workers. This involves a forum of stationing of troops, can begin. A com-
[roundtable discussions mission has already been formed to deal between the employers, the workers and with this. At the end of the time table we the government] that has not yet been will know how the cease-fire will take formed, and the workers will no doubt be disadvantaged because they lack the support of the experts that the government • If a cease-fire does occur, what and private companies have. Popular objectives will the FMLN set for organizations are today searching for this itself for the 1994 elections? type of support. We figure that peoples' power must be strengthened. What we call peoples' pow• This is a familiar problem in Latin er comes out of the framework of the dual America: the peasants succeed in power that today exists in the country. obtaining land, but they lack credit This involves the expansion of various which eventually forces them to sell forms of social and political organization. their land to pay back their debts. The campaign for the 1994 elections will
The same is true for technical assis- come afterwards. tance. We raised the question of revising the credit system for workers during the • "People's Power" can have differ24 New York talks. The question remains of ent meanings. But when we speak of course how to apply these agreements. It power it is something more than the International Viewpoint #218 • December 9, 1991 simple free development of mass organizations that demand power. It means the exercise of power, and five not simply a demand, the right to Do organize. In your opinion what does popular power mean? ral
In El Salvador today, it is essentially a par question of a level of popular organization org and the limited exercise of power. There Ten
Fbu management at several levels: a broad the independence of popular organizations and the exercise of certain functions with a larger autonomy for them, which we call "community" "self-management" Firstly, peace implies that municipal powers can be exercised, but it remains to be seen at what level the population will limit municipal power in relation to what exists today. This involves in any case, the development of popular power. It also remains to be seen how that will function in relation to judges of the peace?, and so
We think that it is necessary that the people exercise broader control. The nationa civilian police in the contested zones must be that of the people themselves; this implies certain limitations of traditional power to the advantage of popular power. The joint employer-worker economic and social boards must become a mechanism which permits unions and popular organizations to participate in the elaboration of economic and social policy; this is part of popular power. • Will the FMLN participate as such in the elections of 1994, or will it be integrated into an electoral front or again support a coalition of other
We think that the FMLN must participate in the elections as a party, but in the framework of a large left-center coalition. We hope that there will be a broad regroupment and we are already discussing with all political parties except the National Republican Alliance (ARENA) which is currently in power. We consider the participation of the Christian Democracy (CD) in this regroupment as essential. 1. La Tandona refers to the leading military officers in the Salvadoran army. These elements supported the low intensity war strategy of the United States. They also directly profited from US economic aid 2. In 1984 the Christian Democratic goverment of Jose Napoleon Duarte began to institute its "agrarian reform" (which had been decreed by a military junta in 1980). It sought to take the initiative on the land ques tion and thus erode the FLN's peasant base. landholdings of over 500 hectares were distributed to 322 cooperatives as well as lands that belonged to the state. This affected 30,000 peasant families (there were officially 220,000 landless families at the time).
Most of the large landholders managed to avoid the provisions of the law which called for the limitation of landholdings to 245 hectares and the sale of lands larg er than that size.
Many cooperatives suffered from a lack of credits and technical assistance as well as market fluctuations Others were forced to abandon their land because they were located in the war zone. 3. In Central America the jueces de paz (judges of the peace) were responsible for ensuring order, which they often did through violent means.
THE NEW YORK ACCORDS
ON September 25 1991, the FMLN and the Salvadoran government signed a
"general peace agreement" for the first time. The following are some of the points agreed upon in the text as well as those currently being negotiated
• The FMLN is today composed of five political-military organizations.4 Do they intend to unify?
The FMLN intends to act in the electoral field as it has in war — as a party — a party with five organizations. But the five
EL SALVADOR
* The creation of a national commission for the consolidation of peace organizations continue to function as currents, each with
(COPAZ), legally constituted by law and charged with enforcing the agreetheir own political bureau. Of course, the leading bodies of ments. The COPAZ will be made up of two representatives of the government, the legal electoral party will resemble two of the FLN, and a representative of each party or coalition represented in somewhat what is today the general comthe National Assembly. The archbishop of San Salvador and a delegate of the
UN mission for El Salvador will serve as observers. "The government and the mand of the FMLN. The various bodies of this new party - central committee, politi-
FMLN should consult COPAZ before adopting decisions or measures relative cal bureau, and so on, will be a representato the peace accords"; " COPAZ will be in direct contact with the president";
tion of the five organizations of the
"COPAZ will have the authority to prepare the necessary legislative proposals
FMLN.
"The creation of COPAZ will be sanctioned by the resolution adopted by the
• For the moment the FMLN is an underground organization. If the cease-fire is obtained, it will need
* The purge of the armed forces will be conducted according to the set critepublic representatives, public meetria and according to a calendar which will be taken up by another accord.
ings, open recruitment, holding of
"The armed forces will be represented by two of its members".
congresses, and so on. What is going to happen?
* The reduction of the armed forces will be defined by an accord between the
We must be able to have the same guar-
The doctrine of the armed forces will be revised according to a separate antees as the other parties. In fact, we even accord and should be founded principally on the defense of national sovereignwant to see more rights for all parties —— a ty in the framework of respect for human rights and constitutional authority.
truly democratic system. During the negonations we must not let our guard down, but there are always risks.
* Concerning the reorganization of the armed forces: according to the agreement signed in Mexico in April 1991, the army must be subordinate to constitu-
• Will each organization in the tional authorities and respect for human rights.
FMLN retain its own leaderships?
Legal work is not the same as under-
* The creation of a national police force (independent of the army) and the ground work, which for reasons of dismantlement of the current security forces.
reconstituted after an investigation of each of its current members and by the security demands a strictly hierarchical (even "vertical") functioning.
integration of new police officers, ("the pluralistic system of recruitment and
Changes will be needed. There are training"); the independence of the police vis-a-vis the Minister of Defense will ready discussions in each organization be the object of a constitutional amendment.
f the FMLN about how to find a less hier-
* The agrarian reform. Land holdings will be limited to to 245 hectares; conarchical mode of functioning than that mposed by the war.
fiscated lands will be compensated and distributed to the poor peasants as well as State lands which are not part of forest reserves; land that has been redistributed in the war zones will be maintained. The negotiations will also take up
What is the state of the mass the question of reducing the social dislocations resulting from structural reform movement in the framework of these programs and measures to promote community development.
negotiations? Has there been a setack or advance of the social move-
* A discussion of economic and social questions with the participation of repments?
resentatives of the government, of labor and of management. *
The peasant movement has been perhaps the most active and this has been in the zones under government control.
There have been more than thirty land iccupations since the beginning of the ear of which only four have been violentsuppressed by the authorities. The govmument has sought to negotiate with the easant organizations on the condition that they do not occupy other lands.
On the other hand, on the trade union evel the response to the measures taken by the government - privatizations, the fissolving of the Institute charged with rice regulations and so on - has been sufficient, even if there have been some notable actions especially among public government was sector workers.
The forced to announce that it would not condinue with its privatizations due to the response of the workers. The neighbortood organizations have not been very two parties; dynamic but I think that they will be in the future. These organizations and the most disadvantaged neighborhoods will be part of the forum of consultation. The strength of the workers in certain areas threatened with privatization, like social security, is considerable. • Are you optimistic about the perspectives for El Salvador?
We face many challenges, perhaps even more complex than during the war. During the war we had to resolve the many organizational problems of a popular armed force; buying boots, obtaining ammunition, but in the present situation we have more complex problems. But I am optimistic, we are all optimistic
The police personnel will be • Concerning the general political debate, do some of the recent declarations made by FMLN leaders represent a political shift?
It is true that some of the declarations made by various members of the general command would suggest this. Statements by Joaquin Villalobos, Shafik Handal or 4. They are: the People's Revolutionary Army, the Popular Liberation Forces, the National Resistance, the Central American Revolutionary Workers' Party, and the Salvadoran Communist Party. 5. See /V 206. Joaquin Villalobos is the leader of the People's Revolutionary Army; Shafick Handal is the Secretary General of the Salvadoran Communist Party, and Ferman Cienfuegos is the leader of the Popular Command frie iN, are all members of the general 225 command of the FMLN.
International Viewpoint #218 • December 9, 1991
EL SALVADOR Ferman Cienfuegos vary from one another. But this does not prove that there are serious problems within the FMLN, but demonstrates on the contrary the richness of the discussions within the organi-
The FMLN is made up of five organizations; we are living in a wartime situation and each of the organizations has its own army. The choice of strategies, tactics, sometimes even of battle plans requires serious debate in order to arrive
The meaning of the events in Eastern Europe, why they happened as they did, the validity of the socialist project today, the type of society we want to build are all questions that we are discussing today. What is new is that elements of this discussion have become public, which was not the case before. But this is not something that threatens to divide us. There are even indications that the new political situation will strengthen the unity of the • Some of the statements of FLN leaders appear to be political positions of the FMLN rather than subjects for discussion, like for example, those of Joaquin Villalobos on Marxism and the abandonment of this doctrine. There have also been the statements of Humberto Ortega in Nicaragua which claim that the traditional conception of exercising power must be reexamined.
Within the South and Central American left there is clearly a deep debate about socialism stimulated by the events in Eastern Europe. But it seems to me to be wrong to consider certain individual statements as positions of the FMLN. The statements of Villalobos for example, are different from those of Shafik Handal. In a recent interview, the latter said that the problems of Latin America can only be solved by socialism. This debate is not
There are some questions that have now become part of our common program.
For example, the development of a popular economic sector in the occupied zones has become one of the gains of the FMLN. The same can be said for peoples' self-management and the strengthening of political pluralism. Reality has imposed certain theoretical conceptions on our common vision like the debate about socialism. This enriches the discussions.
As far as Marxist-Leninist theory is concerned, one thing is clear for everyone in the FMLN: the neo-liberal model that has been imposed on our country and the rest of the world is not going to resolve the enormous problems that the masses face. On the contrary, these schemes have partly resolved the problems of the capitalist economy at the price of higher unemploy26 cs. An attempt has been made to resolve ment and increasing misery for the massthe contradictions created by the system itself at the expense of the masses.
In our country, at least 70% of the people are poor. This means that there is a very low cultural level for the majority of the population. According to the neoliberal model everything will be resolved by market forces; but the majority of people remain outside of the labor market because they lack the necessary qualifica• These people do not have the buying power that would allow them to have access to consumer goods.
That's right. They find themselves outside of the market. The liberal model will not only not resolve these problems, it will aggravate them. Poverty is increasing even in countries where conditions are better, like Mexico and Costa Rica. Neoliberalism is not solving these problems. There is complete agreement about this in the FMLN. We are all looking for an alternative model regardless of what we • But some seem tempted to propose an idyllic conception of the social democratic model to the neoliberal model, along the lines of the Swedish model. This seems to be
I agree that we cannot envisage applying the Swedish model nor even the Costa Rican model, not to mention that of the Asian dragons. The concrete conditions do not permit it. It is as if we wanted to make a revolution following the Cuban road without taking into consideration what we think about its current situation; it is impossible to repeat history.
Even the Nicaraguan model is today impossible to emulate. The international situation that helped the Sandinistas take power, not to mention the Cubans, is completely different today. We therefore cannot think in terms of analogous models. The same is true for Sweden which is part of the North and which built part of its economic power by exploiting the South. Even if we wanted to we could not repeat
It is one thing to dream about this or that model, but another to anchor it in reality. It is tlear that the FMLN must find a different alternative to the neo-liberal model. But as far as precise aspects of it are concerned, like the dictatorship of the prole tariat, it seems to me that we must diges the lessons of the past in order to avoid repeating what has failed elsewhere. This doesn't mean that we should claim that those countries really had a dictatorship of the proletariat and therefore reject it. • As a reference point, we can take either the Stalinist example or that outlined by Lenin in State and Revolution or Marx in The Civil war in France, which is far more democratic and opposed to what happened in the Soviet Union at the end of the 1920's.
I agree. From a theoretical point of view, the criticisms made in such declarations are correct. But the message that these authors wanted to transmit must be analyzed.
I think that as far the dictatorship of the proletariat is concerned, the experience of the Eastern European countries and the Soviet Union, and even under a different form in Nicaragua, must be avoided. I think that this is the main point. It is clearly dangerous to make statements that can be interpreted in a different way to which they were meant. • You say that the international situation is today different from that which the Nicaraguan of Cuban revolutions faced. This is unquestionable. What do you think this means for El Salvador today?
What had been our model before the events in Eastern Europe is today called into question. On the theoretical plane we must reconsider our alternative model of society. Archetypes are no longer suffi-
On the practical plane, the model that we can build will be determined by our the international imposed by the capitalist system. We cannot change this even if we wanted to and even if we contribute to creating the conditions for an overall change of the system, which does not depend on us or the Sandinistas. We must accept and understand the international situation and that we cannot build an isolated model. In my opinion this is impossible — we must fit into the capitalist system. The relations that we had with the Soviet Union have completely changed; there is already a different social situation there, capitalist relations, international prices for oil, and so on. The terms of exchange have been modified; the changes that we can effect will therefore be primarily internal and will be to a large part determined by the international situation that we will have to
We also have to realize that the model that we develop will necessarily have to be realizable. We realize that any model must have a strong social base. We have therefore to be ready to modify our plans. If we refuse to do so we will isolate ourselves from forces with different interests and opinions. *
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