Problems and debates dynamic. That is why in post-war Poland, you had all the elements of an authentic in the anti-imperialist movement revolution. What is in doubt is only what was the social and political expression of
Was this, as the official versions
Interview with AMPO editor would like to claim, a 'Communist revolution', spontaneously carried through in the name of the broad masses of which
The following is an interview with Muto Ichiyo, one of the founders of was the motor force, with the help of its allies in the East? Was it somein the anti-imperialist solidarity movement in Japan. It was conducted at thing that was at first supported by a the end of the summer in Japan by Pierre Rousset.
minority of Poles, but a minority which represented 'the most conscious workers
Pact Organization - from the big mobilizations of the 1960s against the and peasants"? Or was it rather a 'demo
US-Japanese military threat. Founded in 1969 and published in English, cratic revolution for independence' (as ir it was originally aimed at informing foreigners — first of all in other Asian the insurrection in Warsaw) with a broad countries — about the mass struggles in Japan. It rapidly set about coverprogramme of basically socialist reforms ing anti-imperialist and democratic struggles in the region, from South representing more the left of the London
Along with this, it has played a very active role camp' and supported by a real majority in organizing solidarity with these struggles in Japan itself.
of the population, whose demands coincided with the programme of the Communist camp?
Was it not this that allowed the latter to seize on these demands and use the movement for its own purposes to gain a limited social base which in turn produced an inevitable drift, to the right amongst the opposition in society, a drift that was all too apparent in the years 1947-1948?
It is in this way that Professor Tadeusz Lepkowski (8) in his recent book published by the underground posed the problem of the Polish revolutions from 1944-1982 and rightly so, in my opinion. He presents the notion of two revolutions which were in conflict at the end of the war; the Communist one which came from 'above' and the spontaneous one with an independent and democratic character.
the line of argument a question comes to mind: Were the majority of Poles in favour of socialist re-
The reply must certainly be negative, if we understand by socialist reforms a system generally along the lines
The majority of society was without doubt, anti-Communist from this point of view.
without fear of contradiction basic concept of a new economic system
- one involving the socialisation of the means of production was generally ac-
Poland was not so much faced the choice of socialism or capitalism.
The differences were about the methods, the forms and the aims of socialisation.
The positions taken by different parties and social movements was a reflection of these programmatic and ideological dif-
A historian known
Latin America and Poland, T. Lepkowski was the president of Solidarnosc at the history institute in the Polish Academy of Sciences.
the Japanese magazine Ampo and
The magazine Ampo takes its title Korea to the Philippines.
Question. How do you see the situa tion of the anti-imperialist left in Japan
Answer. To be frank, the situation of the anti-imperialist left in Japan is not good. But new possibilities are appearing
It is this positive, hopeful aspect that I would like to stress.
These new possibilities are illustrated above all by the mobilization against the Tomahawk Cruise missiles on June 17 in Yokosuka outside the American naval
Some five thousand people came the deployment of This is not a very large number, in particular in comparison with other antinuclear mobilizations in Japan. But it was a significant demonstration because of its political content and the spontaneous participation people, who had previously not been accustomed to turning out for the traditional antinuclear demonstrations.
A new dynamic of mobilization at the grass-roots level is shaping up. evidenced in particular in the 1,500 kilometer march organized by a group of 11 persons. In 35 days, this march covered the distance between the US base in Sasebo in the southern part of the country and Yokusuka, where the June 17 rally was held. The marchers were able to discuss with many local groups, and this built local roots for the mobilization against Tomahawk Cruise missiles. The action grew out of coordination among
On the national level, the coalition the June mobilization took the name of the National Movement Against the Deployment of the
This is a loose grouping of independent people's organizations and
In early June, about 1,500 groups of workers, students, housewives and ordinary citizens participated in this
It was formed in 1984 and represents a continuation of the movement organized in 1983 against the visit one of the prominent personalities - which stands for Anti-Military of US president Ronald Reagan, which at that time was already centered around the issue of the Tomahawks.
The mobilization against the deploy ment of Cruise missiles has thus become, even if still only to a limited extent, a focus of national political life. It of course remains in the context of the
"antinuclear consensus," but it also reflects a new level of political consciousness and thinking. The meaning of this "national consensus" has become more and more unclear. The traditional movement has produced very broad mobilizations - hundreds of thousands of demonstrators in Hiroshima, Tokyo, Osaka, etc. - but it does not focus on concrete objectives that challenge the government. It often reflects an apolitical antinuclear sentiment.
The fact that the movement against the deployment of the Cruise missiles has been emerging in the framework of this consensus gives it a mass legitimacy and prevents the regime from slandering it as a product of "extremists"
from isolating it. This is positive. But it also goes beyond this consensus by concrete objectives that do challenge the government's policy. This is also positive, because it reflects the start of a new process of politiciza-
Q. But why has the workers' movement retreated, even with respect to the antinuclear mobilizations?
The situation on the trade-union front is indeed still miserable. wing of the workers' movement expresses itself through various publications, it acts through small organizations. But in general, as you know, the situation is entirely dominated by the slide of the trade-union apparatus to the right.
The right-wing national unions, which are based on the private sector and the new Zenminrokyo labor confederation
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ter what sort of unions have to be built, what sort of trade unionism is possible today and must be built. The thinking and action of the working-class left has to be focused on this. Otherwise, it will become impossible even to assure the survival of the left forces.
Q. How can this process be gotten
That's a difficult tactical problem. Where to start? In addition to the fightfront that exists in the workers' movement organized as it is today, in addition to the fight in defense of past gains, we have to open up a second front. We have to address ourselves to sectors that are growing in importance and which have a rich potential for struggle. A key sector in this context is that of women workers, whose role is increasing with the expansion of temporary and part-time not yet been logically conditioned" by the big capitworkers who have been infected with "company patriotism." being drawn into struggle, and their fight can link up with that of women in the family. It can also be a concrete link between the feminist socialist struggle and the fight for regaining a militant base in the workers movement. fers the possibility for winning a social the socialist feminist movement. We have to study the conditions of workers and build an under standing of the need for women's liber-
If such a dynamic can be set in motion, its impact will be profound. Even in the left, a current such as Rodo Joho (2) is almost 100 percent male.
Japanese workers demonstrate solidarity with Solidarnosc (DR) (1), have entirely taken the initiative own survival in the face of the offensive from the Sohyo (the left union confederation) and the public sector. At the time of the last spring mobilizations on wage contracts [there is traditionally. one bargaining drive a year, in the spring], Sohyo did not take any notable initia-
The government is systematically reshaping the public sector, dismantling it and turning over whole operations to the private sector.
So far, the government's policy has been applied with success. Trade-union bastions, such as the Railway Workers Federation, have not been putting up determined resistance to this process of capitalist rationalization and privatization, despite the reactions of the workers at the base level in the workshops and offices.
We have been seeing a rapid breakdown of the lineup that prevailed over the past two decades in the trade-union movement, with Sohyo leading the workers' movement. Naturally, in this context, the working-class left is in trouble My impression is that the unions and groups of workers are retreating into themselves in an attempt to assure their International Viewpoint 24 December 1984 by the government and the right.
These groups are trying to adjust to a changing situation by turning in on them-
Thus, they are tending to isolate We have to understand that attitude reflects the difficulties of the situation. We have to respect what each group does to defend itself and survive in the present situation.
However, to survive as an active political force capable of taking initiatives, you can't just retreat and defend past gains. You need a strategy for recomposing the workers movement that takes account of the real situation of the Japanese working class, of which only about 30% is organized, and that mainly in the
The workers who most need trade unions are in fact precisely those who at present are unorganized. They are the vulnerable, the most • defenseless against the present policy of the government and the bosses.
It is necessary to organize the unorganized. But this is not a sufficient slogan. Even the right is trying to organize the unorganized. This formula is full of loopholes. We have to define bettraditions weigh very heavily in this area, and a shock from the outside is necessary to change things inside the unions.
The problem is posed. Even the government has been obliged to make ges-
It is under pressure tures to women. from the West, even in the context of the trade war, and has introduced a bill calling for equality between the sexes on the job. This is an ineffectual bill, since it sets no definite targets and provides for no sanctions for failure to observe its
It is a formal gesture, of fering the government a cover for a series of concrete attacks against work-
Nonetheless, the bosses are raising a hue and cry that the bill could drive companies into bankruptcy and they won't have it. The reactions that the bill has illicited are interesting, inasmuch as they reveal the fear among employers of seeing a dynamic set in motion in this area. 1. See "The workers movement and the capof the trade-union movement," by Yokoyama italist offensive," and "The recomposition Yoshio, in International Viewpoint, No 62, October 1984.
Rodo Joho (Workers News) is the name of a magazine representing a class-struggle united. front current in the unions. Rosoren is the united national council of the trade-union left wing, to which Rodo Joho belongs.
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The discussions that have opened up on involved in the social and cultural arena.
of intervening on this issue. The women can be organized and can organize themfight on the trade-union front will not be won by means of any superficial readjustments or through traditional struggles. In order to change the situation fundamentally, it is necessary to change the culture of the trade-union and
We need a qualitative change affecting everything, the methods of leadership and functioning, political imagination. Without that, we cannot rebuild an instrument capable of intervening effectively in struggles, an instrument for social change. and must, realize the difficulties of such a task, and we cannot abandon it because it
The existing structures, such as Rodo Joho especially, have a very important role to play in this respect. and Rosoren (2), even if I think that Rosoren was not launched in the best conditions, can address themselves to the unorganized. They are going to prepare a program, which is also a welcome de-
But a lot more is needed than raising slogans. It is necessary to have a vision of the future movement, of what the movement of tomorrow can be. idea — a vision. This problem was already raised three years ago. But the movement remained the prisoner of its need to respond to the events blow by blow, without any perspective other than defensive. The Japanese workers need a new kind of organization. We have to start from a critical balance sheet of the last twenty years, of what Sohyo was, of what the other movements were. This still remains
Q. Does this conviction that you express have any relation to what you said antiwar movement?
A. Yes.
For several the problem. social struggles.
But this tendency 28
Most of the groups involved in social and cultural struggles confine themselves to such issues. But as I said before about the antigovernment dynamic of the fight against the Tomahawk missiles, they can begin to learn the importance of politics from their own experience, starting off from their own points of view. iences in this respect but not yet any developed political platform. In some localities, as in Nagoya, political and social have collaborated for They are able to intervene in a great many fields, from the high schools to international solidarity with the strug gle of the Philippine masses, and including the question of nuclear weapons, pollution, land grabbing by speculators and so on. This indicates the dynamic that these groups active on social issues could develop. But on the national level there is today no consensus in the "movement" in this regard.
The basis of mobilizations such as the one in Yokusuka is what may be called "citizens' groups." Often they have been working tenaciously for nearly twenty years. One of the main characteristics of the demonstration last June was that it the bottom up. And these groups are beginning to open up to
At the same time, they are more and more rooting themselves in the
They have done an enormous amount of door-to-door can vassing, so much that it produced 50,000 signatures on the declaration for a "Non-Nuclear Yokosuka." This is a completely new experience.
On the basis of these experiences, it should be possible to have a real discussion on how to integrate these movements in a more organic, less artificial way and to coordinate them around a program of political and social action. It is necessary to create an atmosphere of
We have not experienced such discussions in ten years. The journals of the political groups polemicize, but they do not engage in real debates.
Q. In this context, how do you think that you can fulfill your tasks of international solidarity?
A. Given our present level of organization, we are not able to respond adequately do developments in the struggle in the Philippines and in South Korea. We are in fact confronted with the problem of US and Japanese intervention. We have to build our organization both for our own tasks here and for solidarity with the peoples struggling for their liberation. In this area, we have to operate on two
On the one hand, we have to force Japan to disengage, at least partially,
To this end, any ally, even only tactical ones, have to be accepted in order to weaken Japanese commitment to Washington. front of practical action. this type of activity cannot impose real changes in Japan's relations with the region. So, also, we have to address ourselves to the potentially revolutionary forces that can bring about more deepgoing changes and really shatter Japan's pro-imperialist policy.
At present, the peace movement, the antiwar movement, is an element that can help to accomplish these two tasks. On the one hand, we can continue activity that is immediately and directly an internationalist one. If we act correctly, we can also reinforce the activity of other forces that are fighting against the government's arms plans, and thereby increase the divisions in the ruling class over the question of arming
Our political target is the US-Japanese military accords. This is the present focus of the struggle. It is symbolized by the name AMPO. This is what we want. But it is not yet the slogan for the
Q. Can you specify what are the present objectives that the left could take up in the trade-union movement?
A. In the short and medium terms, the problem that is going to arise is the following one. Is Sohyo, which represents a tradition of independent working-class trade unionism going to commit suicide? This is implicit in the logic of the rightward slide that the union leadership has now embarked upon. But a lot of union activists don't yet want to face that eventuality, they don't want to believe that it is possible. That is why the moment when the liquidation of Sohyo is posed concretely will be so important. At that moment, the influence of the left can increase rapidly by rallying all those who want to defend the tradition of militant independent trade unionism that
It would be wrong to take a sectarian tack and proclaim a new confederation today, when the forces for one do not
Rodo Joho has to accept the unions that say that they are ready to stick with Sohyo, even if Sohyo is tending toward dissolution. I am not against opposition work in the new rightist confederation. But who is going to be able to do this sort of work?
In the present relationship of forces, what was possible in Sohyo cannot be done in the Zenminrokyo. too small and bureaucratic repression too
You need a party structure for working in the Zenminrokyo today. I think that we would be disarming ourselves if we were all to join this confederation in the present conditions.
But whatever choices are made in the short term, I would stress two things. First of all, we have to adopt long-term perspectives, know where we are going, in order to regain the initiative. And such clarification is still far from being achiev-
Secondly, in the immediate period ahead, the future of Sohyo is not entirely
The victory of the right is not It is when the survival of Sohyo is concretely put in question that things will be decided. our alertness in this fight.
International Viewpoint 24 December 1984
Socialist miners and their wives discuss their strike (NS) 63